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In recent years the name of Jock Stein has been dragged through the mud by elements of the Rangers support. But at no point have any Rangers players resorted to lowering themselves – until now.
Lisa Swanson aka @Swanny_10 tweeted the vile and sickening words ‘Big Jock Knew’ just before the Scottish Cup tie between Celtic and Rangers at Ibrox kicked off.
When we challenged her over her comments, she stated, “lol its just banter before the big game.”
I wonder if Rangers FC would see it as ‘just banter’ certainly this sick and vile chant should not come from a footballer, even if she is not as high-profile as her male counterparts.
She did soon after tweet, “well sorry if it offended you #wearethepeople.”
If Ryan Babel and potentially Jack Wilshere are taken to task over their comments, then Rangers should do the same to Lisa Swanson for her comments should they not?
Her comments pander to the bigoted element within the Rangers support, such as @redhandmick, who tweeted back, “well said Swanny FTP!” and a few other choice words aimed at Celtic manager Neil Lennon. And who then called on ‘All Good Bears’ to take a look at us, for taking Swanson to task over her comments.
Lisa Swanson later contacted us directly to issue an apology, “sorry for writing big jock knew, it was wrong to do that and sorry if it offended you or anyone else. I’m just a Rangers fan who loves Rangers and hate to see when people speak bad about us and I dealt with it the wrong way, sorry again. I just got wound up by celtic fans before the game and took it out on twitter, I didn’t mean anything bad by it.”
It seems that Lisa Swanson’s twitter page has now been deleted.
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Bigotry again spoilt a great game of football yesterday I would appeal to both clubs to calm the behaviour and rhetoric down. Neil Lennon’s actions yesterday were a disgrace to football and not what you would expect from a “professional manager” and his praise for Scott Browns behaviour to try and get a player sent off using foul and abusive language about the players family is also reprehensible. MCcoist on the other hand admiited that Naismith deserved to be sent off for a dive and that Celtic had the better of the play and despite his passion and desire for a Rangers win did not get involved in raising the tension. If you are going to persecute people for bigotry then lets do it fairly with everyone held to account especially those in responsible jobs who should know better. I await action to be taken by the scottish football authorities on Lennon I may be in for some wait.
This really is a blame the parents job. As ignorant as the daft wee hun lassie is, her web footed banjo playing ma n da are the ones in the dock!
Monkey see, monkey do etc..
In fairness to the wee orc, at least she’s got the balls (and lets face it she looks like labrador) to be the official public spokesperson for all Rangers football players, she says publically what they all believe privately.. Wonder if any redtops will report this (aye right) and if the Sectarian Football Association or Debt FC will take any real action!
Answers on a postcard to: Nothing to see here, move along now..
Salads are the answer Bert, that and education! Unless you happen to be intolerant of those who happen to be doing the educating, in which case i’m all for err mixed schooling, yeah, mixed campus’s are the answer, and salad of course.
But given mixed schooling can’t be used for religious purposes, and with Christianity falling under that old religion banner, we’ll eerrrm feck i’m stumped..
How do we create a curriculum in the absence of Christian core values? What do we teach our children? $hit i dunno man, i never though this through, i just told this dude Michael on a blog that religion can’t figure on campus. Damn, any vinegarette dude? Salad tongs!
Guardian/ICM poll:
Here you go Michael, just for you statto- 82% of those questioned see religion as a cause of division and tension between people
Now that was in 2006 but don’t see it changing much. How do you suggest that we change young people’s perceptions?
thats religion as a whole mark – not RC alone as you continue to peddle
Are you pretending to be ignorant?
Always knew there was somebody else involved in JFKs assasination can you give me more info & i will pass it on @ the JFK Museum/Library the next time i visit??????????????????????????????????????//
NoSurrender2011, fancy a handjob from me? Maybe something more too… Kisses, HUNnie:*
As I stated in another article about the admin of this site. It’s pretty obvious where his loyalties lie.
I also said that he is keen in using the ‘Bhain’ cahracter, excuse me that I don’t know his full name though i’m sure admin will be able to tell, well you were excited about the retweet he used on your Lisa Swanson ‘Tweet’. Out to the masses, to the Celtic minded family etc.
Anyway, the ‘Bhain’ character that he is so keen in using is something of a anti everyone except my own Irish Catholic blood brother. The same ‘Bhain’ that tweeted something yesterday accusing El Hadj Diouf of saying something about Scott Brown’s late sister.
After tonight’s Evening Times are admin willing to admit that both he and ‘Bhain’ have an alterior motive in writing colums? Or is it just naievety that makes him retweet certan things that have an affect on other peoples life?
‘Bhain’ is certainly a bigot but don’t see many of his tweets retweeted on your twitter page. In case, you are going to question me on that, ‘The Queen’s underclass’ was on of his comments on twitter yesterday afternoon.
Whatever it is I hope you feel proud of yourself today admin. I know how i’d feel if it was a member of my family getting death threats. You are definitely guilty by association.
Mark first of all I have never hidden by allegiances it is plain as day within the staff section. On top of that my excitement for Phil retweeting my article, was nothing more than a ‘thanks for Rt’ if that is ur level of excitement u really do need to get out more.
And u will find in our articles archive pieces about the vanguard bears as well as a piece on death threats that i have received over the phone on a number of occasions aimed at myself as well as threats aimed at my wife. So stop trying to preach when u have nothing to take moral high ground over – which u are trying to claim.
I’ll ask again, Mr Bhain is a bigot would you not agree? I would certainly say with comments such as referring to opposition fans as ‘The Queen’s underclass’ -amongst other comments- that he certainly was.
Do you agree or disagree?
I’m not claiming any moral high ground btw. She was wrong for saying what she said. You are wrong for not showing both sides of the arguement. Mr Bhain was very excited at your tweet about Ms Swanson so that he could tell the rest of his ‘brothers in arms’. But later refers to them as the above.
Two wrongs don’t make a right i’m sure you’ll agree but i’ll see if you answer the question.
Cant claim to know Phil Bain but I have read some of his articles and nothing jumps out about his alleged bigotry as you claim Mark. If you beleive him to be bigoted then take it up with his employers and Rangers FC.
Ok. So i’ll ask you again. If someone refers to another team or person’s religion as ‘The Queen’s underclass’, you wouldn’t term that as bigoted?
u will have to produce the full sentence that it was said in before i state
any comment on it, as it could be taken out of context.
I don’t see a reply button under your last comment so i’ll put it here.
——————————————————————————–
Pmacgiollabhain Phil MacGiollaBhain
The Queen’s underclass will be rattled after that.Stay safe tonight folks. Don’t become a hidden statistic
——————————————————————————–
Lifted from his Twitter page yesterday. Got a snapshot of it also but can’t upload from here. His 2nd tweet from 6th Feb.
So direct quote lifted from his page and for all to see so not taken out of context. Is that a bigoted comment? Yes or No?
In my opinion claiming that rangers fans are the queens underclasses is not bigoted. Many of us could be classed as underclasses as certainly do by the hoighty toighty nobility in this country and are we not all the queens subjects?
Cant see anything bigoted about his statement.
Interesting. So if Lisa Swanson had referred to Celtic fans as ‘priests playthings’ yesterday she’d have been ok with that according to your reasoning?
It could be said that vast majority of Celtic fans are Roman Catholic and attend the church. Many of them have come forward past, present and probably future (unfortunately) saing they have been abused by priests.
Oh and before anyone points out. I DO think that would be a very bigoted statement and a very sweeping one at that also. However by the answer you gave about Mr Bhain’s tweet you are making those same sweeping assumptions also.
I didn’t expect you to have admitted that you saw Bhain’s comments as imflammatory or bigoted but then again from a neutral’s point of view I see you as part of the problem not the solution but not seeing that as bigoted.
Before I go, maybe ask Nil by Mouth what they think of Mr Bhain’s tweet.
i doubt very much u r neutral mark and why dont u contact nil by mouth and then ask them to contact us with their answer directly
Believe me, I am neutral. If anything, having been brought up R.C., it’s been suggested to me that i’m ‘a tim without the busfare’ due to the team I support.
Mind you, there is the conspiracy that even the neutrals (i.e. the referees) aren’t neutral where Celtic are concerned.
I also post on other sites about the hypocrisy of Rangers fans. However, this article along with the Diouf article have both been written, I suggest, with the sole purpose of antagonising one side and not another due to the fact there has been no thought of balancing out the arguement.
It probably would see you get a lot more credibility if you took the blinkers of and realised that.
As for Nil by Mouth, I will do that in seeing you obviously don’t want to counter balance the arguement. It will be interesting to see if your stance would change if they say it is. But then, that would make you a hypocrite so I won’t hold my breath.
Good site but as I said you’re fast becoming part of the problem with recent articles.
I find it absolutely bemusing that Rangers fans believe they have the moral high ground in this issue, where for years they’ve been nothing but a disgrace to Scottish football with their behaviour both at home and abroad.
Chanting vile and odious slogans about a man who assisted to the dying and injured people caught up in the terrible chapter of Rangers’ history, The Ibrox Disaster.
It’s shocking and sickening that people speak ill of the dead but whenever the likes of Hibs and Aberdeen fans have made disgraceful chants about the Ibrox Disaster, Rangers fans are up in arms about it, however when Rangers fans chant disgusting things about Jock Stein, it’s fair game and “a bit of banter”.
Sorry but there’s no moral high ground here, such behaviour as this only blights the Scottish game, which is in dire need of improvement on the pitch as well as off the pitch, judging by nonsense such as sectarian chanting and crap like the kind Lisa Swanson has indulged in along with many other Rangers fans which aren’t “banter” but venomous garbage which has no place in our game either, and i think Scottish football needs to be seen to be making steps to root this poisonous element out of our game.
I don’t wish any ill upon Lisa Swanson, and i think it’s sad and dangerous that her address is being posted up on forums, especially after the tragic circumstances in which a Celtic fan Reamonn Gormley whose life ended tragically at such a young age, we’d do well to remember that it’s just a bloody game at the end of the day and it can do without “banter” like this because it’s far from being banter.
Banter is when you can take the piss out of one another without someone being hurt or losing their life as a result.
Sorry for this rambling message but i feel we need to get a bit of perspective here.
Lisa is just a human being at the end of the day, yes i would expect her to get a bollocking from her bosses at Ibrox and rightly so but a young lassie doesn’t need to live in a state of fear nor does she deserve threats of violence against her.
As someone pointed out, i am more likely inclined to blame the parents or her mates for influencing her into making such stupid comments but i reckon somewhere there is a young lassie feeling really embarrassed about her behaviour.
Now….please, stop the vile chants and stupid behaviour and let’s put Scotland back on the footballing map for all the right reasons again.
“In 1991 the boys’ club had been to Kearney, New Jersey – an annual tour to the Irish part of the state with players staying at the homes of Catholic families -and one boy, no longer at Celtic but now a professional player in Scotland, had alleged to his hosts and to his own family that he had been assaulted by the team’s general manager, Frank Cairney. The boy’s father took him to Celtic Park to have it out with Liam Brady who was then only months in the job as team manager. The club’s chief scout John Kelman was also present.
It was Brady’s first serious and most affecting problem in a troubled time at Parkhead which did not last long. He listened to the boy,believed him, and insisted to the board that Cairney had to be removed, not only from the boys’ club but from any association with the main football club. So, overnight, the man who was used to having his run of the place and the ear of the management, was cast out. It was agreed, by Brady, the boy and his parents and the then Celtic board, that the police would not be informed. The young player was assured that the alleged incident would have no effect on his future career at the club. However, signed statements were taken by Celtic’s lawyers from the four adults who had been on the New Jersey trip. All were sworn to silence.Cairney was now away from the football club and its nursery – business commitments was the given reason – but Jim Torbett was backplaying a major role, first as a fund-raiser then back with the boys’ club. Torbett had maintained his connections with Celtic. Pre-McCann board member Kevin Kelly, still honorary president of the boys’ club, is a fellow director of Torbett’s company The TrophyCentre, and current board member Jack McGinn is an employee.
It is not clear why a man widely regarded as a child abuser was allowed back into a position of responsibility at the boys’ club. Torbett had been kicked out in 1976 after being confronted by the committee and, according to Frank Cairney’s account of the meeting, had broken down in tears and confessed. He was then summoned to a meeting with Jock Stein, at the end of which the big man physically kicked him out of the door. And just to ensure that the boys’ club stayed clean the legendary Celtic manager brought in another man,Hugh Birt, as chairman of its committee.
Birt claims he was concerned about the behaviour of both Cairney and Torbett – who wheedled his way back in after Stein’s death – and raised the matter with the club. Before he knew it Birt was asked to resign. When he stood his ground and refused, he says, Celtic withdrew his ticket to the directors’ box and he had no option but to get out.”
“Mr Birt said: “There was a lot of hearsay and it wasn’t until Jim came back that I got involved because things started up again.”
He told how he took the allegations against Torbett to the Celtic board and Stein and even told the then vice-chairman, Kevin Kelly, about them at a meeting in his car.
He said: “Although there were people who spoke to me I couldn’t go to the police without actual proof of the allegations. When I joined as chairman, I was told by Jock Stein to keep the name of Celtic Football Club clean at all times.” ”
She told no lies.
so bob u have proven that not only DID stein kick torbett out, but he NEVER asked anyone to cover anything up. And that torbett returned to the club AFTER stein died. Thank you. You have proven my point that Jock Stein took action, and your last statement about keeping CFC name clean at all times can be construed as nothing more than a statement that anyone would make at a fresh face to the club.
I hope though BOb that u urself campaign against child abuse and
not perpetrated by one individual at one place, or are you just another hypocrite jumping on the ibrox karaoke session bandwagon?
I think he’s proved he knew. Knew waht might be vague but so was Lisa Swanson’s comment. Play on words my friend.
The excerpt from the article does prove that Stein kicked out Torbett, why did he do this? If it’s for the obvious reason then he failed to report him to the proper authorities. This course of action lead to the suffering of more innocent children at the hands of Torbett, seemingly the reason behind this way of dealing with the situation was to keep the name of a sporting organisation clean from any negative associations. That’s my interpretation of what is there.
I provided no personal thoughts or views that could lead to me being called a hypocrite. Just a link to information related to the point in question for the people that contribute here, to read and consider. I can’t help but think that the logic in your point though is inherently flawed, and not wholly pertinent to the scenario in question. Plus, the intent of it is seemingly to be derogatory toward me and my morality and my predilections, something that you have no basis to comment on. I think that that is a strange position for the admin here to take to a relative newcomer and must admit that it makes me hesistant to contribute to other discussions in the future.
An absolute discrace to her beloved club and country ,our history makes us strong your hatred lisa makes us stonger
Limerickbhoy, I have no wish to get in a fight with you but surely you should be looking at your own country before getting involved in someone elses. It wa words, nobody physically hurt. Doesn’t make it right but if you really want to cast aspertions on my country i’ll give you a proper history lesson on yours.
theres always a bad element in any place trust me im from limerick but to be honest any time i go to glasgow which is quiet often i find the level of hatred directed towards me because im irish is quiet funny ,yet to meet a rangers fan in glasgow who wasnt a dope even do i have a few mates from glasgow who r living in eire who are r fans
the wee lass was stupid for sayin it but , he knew FOR SHAME CFC and the fact he never reported it to the proper authorities also makes him a criminal ,, simply kicking the beast out the club is not good enough FOR SHAME CFC
Bob,
The crux of the matter is the parents of the poor unfortunate tragic victims involved did not want to take it any further by pressing charges against the evil bastard Torbett. Authorities WERE aware of the matter but if no-one was willing to press charges and put there child through the horrors of a court appearance then not much can be done legally. There was even more of a stigma involved in those days around child abuse than today. heck, in certain instances probably children themselves were being blamed such was the medieval attitude. And certain sections of Rangers fans still want to drag Sir John Stein’s legendary name through the mud? Scum to a man (and girl).
What I never read or hear about in this disgusting matter is one iota of sympathy uttered for the tragic victims in all of this. What Torbett did to these boys left an indelible stain cast upon their souls for the rest of their lives. Folk who use this a truck to beat Celtic or an inoocent man in Jock Stein with, whilst offering no words of sympathy to the victims, are in my opinion just as much evil scummy bastards as Torbett himself.
Oh my god this is unbelievable!!! Thank you ‘Mark’ for trying to get my point across and even to ‘Yahoo serious’ for understanding that Lisa is a human being and the threats are out of order. May I say to ‘Bert’ your completely wrong infact Lisa’s family life is far from what you are saying so please leave this alone not PC at all. As for so called superiority complex, then you are barking up the wrong tree you obviously didn’t read my remarks properly. I can see all points in this discussion regarding bigotry in this country on both sides of the auld firm and never said anything to the contrary. Some of you people have to understand it’s about an individual person being made a scapegoat for all the sectarian messages that you spout every day but never get caught!!!!! Life is too short for all this no matter what and i was merely trying to get you all to understand it is ridiculous that grown men or women take this to extremes. Yes I did say Lisa should not have been so silly to make these comments public and comletely agree that bigotry has to be stamped out but NOT at her expense. Just take a serious look as I said before at the REAL bigots.
Also when I said THE END i meant give up all this nonsense and get a life. ‘FOOTBALL IS THE BEAUTIFUL GAME AND IN AN IDEAL WORLD SHOULD STAY THAT WAY NO MATTER WHO YOU SUPPORT OR WHAT YOUR RELIGION MAY BE’
Ooops meant to say I am sure the club will deal with this how they see fit, however Lisa is not an employee of the club, all girls & ladies involved with any football club in this country do NOT get paid a penny!!!! So it’s a struggle for them to hold down jobs and go to college etc and play the game may I say out of the love of it nothing else and train four nights a week. That’s dedication!!
I don’t find making fun of child abuse victims to be particularly funny and anyone who uses such filth as a form of “banter” to use against another football team is just as bad as some football fans making fun of the victims who died at The Ibrox Disaster.
It’s fucking shocking behaviour.
In light of yesterday’s Old Firm game, i saw some people on a Rangers board making fun of Scott Brown’s sister’s death. Sorry but when you begin plumbing those depths to vent your anger and frustration, you’re not just letting the team you support down but yourself down.
One thing i will never do is use tragic events such as these as a form of oneupmanship over a rival support.
As well as that, i think forums such as The Huddleboard and FollowFollow which both have poor form for posting up addresses should be shut down by the authorities, endangering people’s lives like that goes way beyond football as far as i am concerned.
So ANN CAMPBELL who are these REAL BIGOTS you refer to ? Obviously not Lisa as she is a daft wee lassie or her parents who have had no influence on her. So where did she learn her Bigotry ?
Mark seems to paint the RC Church as the problem Dominic, and some kinds of salad as the soloution apparently!
What’s your solution Michael? Printing a page of statistics and saying ‘look, we’re getting picked on’? Like I said statistics can be used in many different ways.
We’re all better off today than we were a couple of years ago according to statistics.
According to statistics Paul Le Guen was the best young manager in Europe 4-5 years ago and Derek Riordan was a better striker than Henrik Larsson.
All statistically true, no? Look it up
I’m no scular idealist Mark i can say that much.. I suspect you may struggle to..
I’m certainly in support of continued Catholic state funded schooling in the UK and do not see it as a bain on society, anymore than i believe it to be a barrier to an inclusive, tolerant and accepting social culture.. How this sits with your salad beliefs is lost on me. It seems you stand in the triangle of contradiction on that one.. Good luck with that..
A great man once said;
It’s not religion that’s the problem – it’s the lack of it!”
Not one person should condone intentionally offending others but for the love of god people she is 19 years old and she has apologised for any issue she has caused, let it go!!!
The way some of you are tossing around the words like “Disgusting” etc you would have thought she had committed a crime.
Teenagers make mistakes, its just unfortunate that now they can make these mistakes to a global audience.
And the vultures are permanently circling.
LJ is she old enough to vote? old enough to drink? old enough to get married? then she is old enough to be held accountable for her comments. However as I stated in the article she has apologised, and does not deserve the level ofabuse directed at her by some quarters.
Don’t mock Michael about the salad, especially when you have no idea what it is.
You are entitled to your opinion, so instead of preaching to me about Catholic Education being whatever. You agree with their views on abortion? Their views on sex before marriage? Homosexuality? You agree that they have been right to cover up countless cases of child abuse, which before you say they were apologised to and acknowledged last summer, that makes it ok now?
I mean you agree with all of the churches view(s) or you don’t, RC, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Orthodox whatever i mean Exodus 35:2 states that working on the sabath means you be put to death..
Child abuse cases, allegation and counter-allegations have been well covered and widespread across the globe sadly, and not all exclusively within the RC church. But to use it as a stick to beat one specific faith with, to judge, to make sweeping gross generalisations on is at best ill-informed and at worst bigoted.. Quite simply it boils down to showing intolrance towards a faith that has differing beliefs to yours, or in this case one that you have lost your belief in.
I’d have thought you’d at least have some recal around the respect, tolerance and accepting of all faiths and religions that are the core teachings within state run Catholic schooling. So in this context, yes i whole heartedly accept that the way to eliminate the prevelent anti-Catholic social culture is through education.
The question I asked was, do you believe in all the R.C church teachings as it’s them specifically that are being taught in R.C schools!!
But as you already admitted above in your other post you don’t really think state run religious schools are necessary which then would mean R.C. schools are not necessary either.
Glad we agree at last!
I wish I had crayons, it’d be easier!
You’ll have to point out where within the RC curriculum at primary AND secondary levels (both are available online and @ your library) teachings that covers the explicit views of the RC church’s on abortion, sex before marriage and homosexuality?
At what age do RC school children learn this exactly? Who teaches them, and how is it taught exactly?
THAT’S what you asked if I agreed with! And in response I explained that contrary to your assertions, young RC’s are not being taught to believe and uphold the RC Church’s views on abortion anymore than teaching them to kill their neighbor for working on the Sabbath!
I mean have you read all of the bible?I know i haven’t. Do you think it’s being taught in its entirety? Cover to cover, exclusively to everyone of a Christian faith?
They are taught to think of their own free will, inclusive of other cultures and faiths and many RC schools have large numbers of mixed faith children in attendance, they are very far from removed what you’d like to believe, and are very much mixed (like a salad) are required, very much an important part of most communities they reside and should remain so.
The RC education is a worldwide success and only in Scotland does the argument to disband them exist.. Imagine that!
You’re better than a troll Mark. God bless
‘The RC education is a worldwide success and only in Scotland does the argument to disband them exist.. Imagine that!’
Sorry? Where is the non dom education system not a success?
Where are the answers to my questions that I asked?
Another question for you not to answer, what % in a school week is taken up by Religious Education in R.C school/non-dom schools? Something for you to research in seeing you’re keeen in quoting stats.
Finally and a little off topic. You’re in favour of state run Islamic schools?
Mark what’s wrong wth Islamic schools – private or state run etc? You may be against RC schools and claim that they are a major problem in the West of Scotland, but the fact that there are RC schools across the country and the world, plus non-dom schools as well proves that the issue is not with RC Schools and that it is society in this specific region that is the problem.
Oh, thought you’d gone quiet admin as still see the comments you accounted to me previously are still there.
I’ll do the decent thing and answer the question you have asked without humming or hawing then side stepping it totally.
I see nothing wrong as such as especially if you’re going to give R.C their own state schools you have to do same for others and that would include offshoots of other religions- 7 Day adventists, Islamic fundamentalists, the popular front of Judea, the peoples front of Judea….. You get the idea.
Private is private and people can do with their own money as they like.
Now answer me honestly would you be happy to have increase in your council tax to fund all these different schools and school buildings?
it doesnt bother me about the council tax issue as we already pay way over the odds for potholed roads, increased salaries for councillors and MPs. At least some of the money would then go to something worthwhile such as education rather than paying for politicians second homes and expenses they fiddle.
@Admin. Tell me why you believe we should have schools?
i have no problems with the current set up of non-dom, rc and muslim schools whether state run or private. I dot care in all honesty where someone is educated. I am not bothered by the type of schools people are educated in unlike some.
Are you bothered about Sectarianism though?
@admin. Still waiting for retrtaction of your comments yesterday. In seeing this moring’s comments have been moderated and posted i’m assuming topic is still live with you so i’ll expect the retraction from yourselves over things I did not say.
Mark with ref to RC Schools i know where you are coming from with reference to them but in no way are they to blame for the sectarianism in the central belt of Scotland.These Schools have been around long before the Irish diaspora in the nineteenth century also it was the Protestants who pushed the idea as well.What exactly are your proposals with regard to RC Schools you cant just close them the cost would be rediculous & BTW i dont believe in the teachings of any christian religions jesus christ in nothing but a con to keep the masses in line
@Dannybhoy. Thank you, and you are correct in everything you say.
In case you don’t want to trawl through every single comment made in this I can assure you I have never said they ~(R.C. Schools) are to blame for sectarianism in the West of Scotland. I’ve suggested that joint campuses are the way forward and the primary reason why this is not happening at the moment is the R.C. Church. Admin and Michael have both agreed that education is the way forward to try and stamp out bigotry and sectarianism, problem is they both believe I am saying that R.C. Church is the root of the problem. Admin has put words into print saying I’ve said about IRA songs being taught in R.C. Schools- still waiting btw admin.
My proposal is simply for joint school campuses or one step further, one school, all religions. I’m not saying R.C. believers shouldn’t have their communions, confession etc but where is the best time/place to do this?
The education system in this country (UK in general) is being dumbed down by all accounts. Shouldn’t we as adults be worried for our children and their children about where we are going with education?
The people who teach our children shouldn’t be determined by their religion. They should be the best person for the job. Religious and Moral education should be about tolerance and acceptance of all religions. Celebration of festivals etc. After school clubs etc would be my suggestion for teachings of things such as R.C. beliefs but keep education as education and all the children together whether Celtic, Rangers, Hibs , Hearts or Queen of the South minded backgrounds!!
As I said, I don’t expect it to solve all the problems of Sectarianism overnight but surely if it drops by 0.001% then it’s still better than we have now? Maybe EVEN within a couple of generations we’ll see less parades on the street, slogans on the bus stop, graffiti on the wall etc.
I’m with you that it’s all a con to keep the masses in line and I’m willing to bet Michael doesn’t believe in all the teachings either as avoided the question so far.
As for admin…..he himself doesn’t seem to know who or what he believes in!
where did i say that u said that ira songs were taught in rc schools??
mark ur taking the easy way out by just blaming the majority of problems on the RC Church and ur excuse – because its bigger than the OO and other organisations u named?
RC schools do not breed sectarian bigots, nor do they breed those fans who glorify the IRA.
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The above was what your response was to me. Now correct me if i’m wrong admin, you are implying that I said RC schools breed sectarian bigots. Something which I have never said in any post.
As for them glorifying the IRA, I haven’t come close to saying anything of the sort. I have mentioned previously, might not even be in this article, about seeing IRA tricolours at a recent game but the counterbalance to that was the other side singing their songs at Ibrox.
If you read my response to Dannybhoy, you’ll maybe understand what i’ve been trying to say. Never ever would I knock someones beliefs but as I have said to you and Michael we all agree on education to try and stop the bigotry and sectarianism. But when you take a child at 4 and put them into a different school than his 4 yr old next door neighbour they immediately do what children do and ask questions and so it begins.
Now in my opinion, and I stress, my opinion, education is education; religion is religion.
Religion is a dying breed. You say you aren’t RC. I’m lapsed. Michael refuses to answer if he believes and follows all the teachings of the RC church.
In fact, at the risk of sounding like a bigoted statement, a lot of the priests don’t believe in their teachings either and believe the church needs to modernise.
Plenty of opportunity for people/children to express their beliefs outwith school. If, as you say, you didn’t go to an RC school you chose to follow your path and support Celtic, which goes against the grain if you like.
The only criticism i’ve made of the R.C. Church is that it’s them that’s holding back the development of joint campuses- not one school but joint campus. It’s a fact. If they agreed to that it’s a step in the right direction imo.
Like I said in time may even reduce Sectarianism.
Mark
to do what your saying reference joint campus schools (which actually does happen in Highlands/Border areas of Scotland) you would probably have to start with kids @ a very young age IMHO.A Question we should be asking why are RC Schools not a problem in outher countries bar Scotland/N.Ireland,would also like to point out that both Celtic/Rangers do have very good programs underway to try & sort out sectarianism it is a slow process i am afraid ,butwe have a lot of people with very funny ideas when it comes to religion on both sides of the coin. Most people who go on about religion have never even read about there so called christian religions & know next to nothing about the teachings/history of there faiths.With reference to IRA songs @ games i think it would better if Celtic fans stopped singing them even though they are not sectarian IMHO.
Couldn’t agree more re your last few lines. Also, you say Celtic fans and singing IRA songs, same thing applies to Rangers and certain songs. Unfortunatlely it’s another of those grey areas that because it doesn’t actually slate or have a go at the other team/persons’ beliefs it’s deemed as ‘acceptable’ to sing.
Yeah, joint campuses do tend to happen in more rural communities also- money saving mostly, but again it’s agood start.
The Celtic and Rangers football and education programs for primary aged kids are very good. Unfortunately, as you say, it’s slow progress mainly due to numbers. Definitely a start though.
Finally, just be careful Dannybhoy. Admin will be along in a minute accusing you of not possibly being a Celtic fan by saying about the IRA songs. I’ve already been accused of not being neutral by daring to criticise his beloved Celtic!
That right Admin?